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Revision as of 18:25, 26 October 2010

54 bytes added ,  18:25, 26 October 2010
Moving arguments against logging (resp. against various variants of it) to a different section -- they are not arguments against hiding the console by default
(Moving arguments against logging (resp. against various variants of it) to a different section -- they are not arguments against hiding the console by default)
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:: Name concrete examples, please. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Name concrete examples, please. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Just do a grep (or Agent Ransack on Windows) for all warnings in the source code of the game engines. There are several warnings in sword1/2 game engines, related to load failures or unexpected data (i.e. corrupt files). [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Just do a grep (or Agent Ransack on Windows) for all warnings in the source code of the game engines. There are several warnings in sword1/2 game engines, related to load failures or unexpected data (i.e. corrupt files). [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
=== Pros (Arguments for logging to a file) ===
* Users need to restart ScummVM, to get more feedback on critical issues, when bugs or issues occur and they haven't copied/pasted the relevant information from the console, and might not even be able to reproduce the bug/issue.
* Sometimes, when ScummVM crashes unexpectedly, the program exits completely, and the user loses the error in question. This doesn't happen with a log file.
* A log file can be easily submitted via the bug tracker, even if it is big.
* A log file is often much easier for the developers to analyze than a screenshot.




Line 74: Line 67:
::: Basically if an issue that isn't critical (crash or lockup) occurs, the console could provide information on why that occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Basically if an issue that isn't critical (crash or lockup) occurs, the console could provide information on why that occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
:::: If ScummVM crashes, the log file will contain all the warnings before the error anyway, so I find this point a bit moot --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
:::: If ScummVM crashes, the log file will contain all the warnings before the error anyway, so I find this point a bit moot --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
==== A single log file can easily be overwritten, if a user relies solely on logs for reporting bugs or issues. This is exactly the same situation with console windows, though. ====
: I don't see how this is an argument for always showing the console. It is just pointing out a limitation of using a single log file, but obviously the console has the exact limitation. Actually, isn't relying on the console alone is worse, as its content is gone as soon as ScummVM quits / crashes? Or does Windows keep the console open in that case?  --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 15:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
:: If the console was specifically allocated for that executable and has not been attached to by another executable, [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms683150(v=VS.85).aspx the console dies with the process]. --[[User:Pidgeot|Pidgeot]] 16:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Based on what Pidgeot writes, I think this "con" argument is no argument at all. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 16:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Just noting the disadvantages of solely rely on logs. The main advantage of a console window over logs, is immediate information on why a non-critical issue occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
==== Multiple logs would lead to more confusion, about which file to submit, if that method was used. ====
==== If logs files are used, how do we handle multiple ScummVM be run at the same time? I expect this would effect developers more (i.e. when tracing regressions), and not be common with users though. ====


==== If a toggle is added for opening/closing the console window (showing all previous output), users will be dumped back to the desktop. And jumping back into ScummVM can result in further issues, of screen going out of sync or crash, with poor display drivers. ====
==== If a toggle is added for opening/closing the console window (showing all previous output), users will be dumped back to the desktop. And jumping back into ScummVM can result in further issues, of screen going out of sync or crash, with poor display drivers. ====
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::: Yes, I have not come across any Windows program that will show the console window on demand in that way. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Yes, I have not come across any Windows program that will show the console window on demand in that way. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
::: I agree, suddenly and unexpectedly showing the console like that seems worse to me (from a UI design point of view) than always showing the console. To iterate it once more: If there are messages the user should see, we must not rely on the console output, but rather must display the information to the user by other means, such as GUI dialogs. And this holds true regardless of how the discussion here is settled in the end. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
::: I agree, suddenly and unexpectedly showing the console like that seems worse to me (from a UI design point of view) than always showing the console. To iterate it once more: If there are messages the user should see, we must not rely on the console output, but rather must display the information to the user by other means, such as GUI dialogs. And this holds true regardless of how the discussion here is settled in the end. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
=== Pros (Arguments for logging to a file) ===
* Users need to restart ScummVM, to get more feedback on critical issues, when bugs or issues occur and they haven't copied/pasted the relevant information from the console, and might not even be able to reproduce the bug/issue.
* Sometimes, when ScummVM crashes unexpectedly, the program exits completely, and the user loses the error in question. This doesn't happen with a log file.
* A log file can be easily submitted via the bug tracker, even if it is big.
* A log file is often much easier for the developers to analyze than a screenshot.
=== Cons (Arguments against logging to a file) ===
==== A single log file can easily be overwritten, if a user relies solely on logs for reporting bugs or issues. This is exactly the same situation with console windows, though. ====
: I don't see how this is an argument for always showing the console. It is just pointing out a limitation of using a single log file, but obviously the console has the exact limitation. Actually, isn't relying on the console alone is worse, as its content is gone as soon as ScummVM quits / crashes? Or does Windows keep the console open in that case?  --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 15:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
:: If the console was specifically allocated for that executable and has not been attached to by another executable, [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms683150(v=VS.85).aspx the console dies with the process]. --[[User:Pidgeot|Pidgeot]] 16:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Based on what Pidgeot writes, I think this "con" argument is no argument at all. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 16:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
:: Just noting the disadvantages of solely rely on logs. The main advantage of a console window over logs, is immediate information on why a non-critical issue occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
==== Multiple logs would lead to more confusion, about which file to submit, if that method was used. ====
==== If logs files are used, how do we handle multiple ScummVM be run at the same time? I expect this would effect developers more (i.e. when tracing regressions), and not be common with users though. ====
Fingolfin
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