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::: I still class ScummVM as beta, because our release testing only seems to get worse with each release. The last major release focused testing only on certain games, and the majority of games passed, without any regression testing at all. More thorough release testing, simply takes more time, and there are no easy solutions. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ::: I still class ScummVM as beta, because our release testing only seems to get worse with each release. The last major release focused testing only on certain games, and the majority of games passed, without any regression testing at all. More thorough release testing, simply takes more time, and there are no easy solutions. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::: You are welcome to class ScummVM as alpha, beta, gamma or any other greek letter you like, and you can even class it a banana, but this is really totally irrelevant. ScummVM is *not* a beta, period. Feel free to try to convince the rest of the team to imitate Google and slap a big "Beta" badge over everything, but right now, this is not the case. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 21:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :::: You are welcome to class ScummVM as alpha, beta, gamma or any other greek letter you like, and you can even class it a banana, but this is really totally irrelevant. ScummVM is *not* a beta, period. Feel free to try to convince the rest of the team to imitate Google and slap a big "Beta" badge over everything, but right now, this is not the case. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 21:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::: Not irreverent at all, you can't state ScummVM release versions are stable, when we no longer thoroughly testing the majority of games. We are currently relying on public feedback from the wider testing of release versions for even regressions, no matter how much you want to deny that fact. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
: I don't see how an extra console window appearing in the background, suddenly confuses users either. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 23:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC) | : I don't see how an extra console window appearing in the background, suddenly confuses users either. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 23:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:: Well, you are hardly a regular user, and devs often don't see things as problematic that "normal" users do. But you are right in so far as that we are essentially uttering believes here. So, we should run a poll among our users to determine what they think about the console window, and what they would prefer. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :: Well, you are hardly a regular user, and devs often don't see things as problematic that "normal" users do. But you are right in so far as that we are essentially uttering believes here. So, we should run a poll among our users to determine what they think about the console window, and what they would prefer. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 09:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::: A Windows build of ScummVM will still briefly show a console window, when the console window is disabled, no matter which method is used. So if users truly are confused, that confusing might continue. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== Many users requested this over the years ==== | ==== Many users requested this over the years ==== | ||
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::: Quite easily, we could have a graphical display to the mass add detection screen of how many games were not found (e.g. "Not recognized: 2"). The user can then consult the log file, where he can find the full paths of the aforementioned games, along with their MD5 checksums --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ::: Quite easily, we could have a graphical display to the mass add detection screen of how many games were not found (e.g. "Not recognized: 2"). The user can then consult the log file, where he can find the full paths of the aforementioned games, along with their MD5 checksums --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:: You need to think a bit more outside the box. We don't have to (and in fact, most definitely should not) turn every warning directly into a dialog one-to-one. It's not hard to come up with several ways to design a mass add dialog that provides all this information, and more, in a concise fashion to the user. For that matter, though, I am not sure what console output from the mass detection you would want to see in the GUI... reports about partial matches that hint at a directory that might contain an incomplete game? --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 21:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :: You need to think a bit more outside the box. We don't have to (and in fact, most definitely should not) turn every warning directly into a dialog one-to-one. It's not hard to come up with several ways to design a mass add dialog that provides all this information, and more, in a concise fashion to the user. For that matter, though, I am not sure what console output from the mass detection you would want to see in the GUI... reports about partial matches that hint at a directory that might contain an incomplete game? --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 21:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::: Yes, reports about partial games (which can be due to missing files) or unknown games versions. For example: A user could use the mass add option on the whole CD of a foreign language version of a game from Humongous Entertainment. Which could detect several unknown game versions, since many games demos are bundled with each games from Humongous Entertainment. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== Users need to restart ScummVM, to get more feedback on non-critical issues, and might not even be able to reproduce the bug/issue. ==== | ==== Users need to restart ScummVM, to get more feedback on non-critical issues, and might not even be able to reproduce the bug/issue. ==== | ||
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:::: Several unsupported games (and specific game versions) are still enabled in release versions, where warnings about missing code or features would be of most benefit. And sometimes we do need to know where specific code is used (or if used at all) via warnings (i.e. Tell x where this code is used), which can require wider testing, and can't be turned into errors for the release versions. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :::: Several unsupported games (and specific game versions) are still enabled in release versions, where warnings about missing code or features would be of most benefit. And sometimes we do need to know where specific code is used (or if used at all) via warnings (i.e. Tell x where this code is used), which can require wider testing, and can't be turned into errors for the release versions. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::: I disagree, very few people bother to report these. The "please talk to X about this" should usually be errors (like we did with the workarounds for script bugs in SCI), or GUI popups, where possible --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ::::: I disagree, very few people bother to report these. The "please talk to X about this" should usually be errors (like we did with the workarounds for script bugs in SCI), or GUI popups, where possible --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::: In these particular cases, we only need a single users to report where the message occurred though. We usually don't turn message of this type into errors in release versions, due to the negative effects it could have on game play. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== If a known issue occurs, but isn't suitable for GUI feedback, then users lose that information. ==== | ==== If a known issue occurs, but isn't suitable for GUI feedback, then users lose that information. ==== | ||
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::: Basically if an issue that isn't critical (crash or lockup) occurs, the console could provide information on why that occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ::: Basically if an issue that isn't critical (crash or lockup) occurs, the console could provide information on why that occurs, if there are related warnings. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::: If ScummVM crashes, the log file will contain all the warnings before the error anyway, so I find this point a bit moot --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :::: If ScummVM crashes, the log file will contain all the warnings before the error anyway, so I find this point a bit moot --[[User:Md5|Md5]] 13:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::: But a console can show message at the exact time a non-critical issues occurs. While a log file could have various other unrelated messages, before or after that non-critical issues occurs, and might not be as helpful. We would still need to know the exact time a non-critical issue occurred in that case, even if we could time stamp all messages sent to log files. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== If a toggle is added for opening/closing the console window (showing all previous output), users will be dumped back to the desktop. And jumping back into ScummVM can result in further issues, of screen going out of sync or crash, with poor display drivers. ==== | ==== If a toggle is added for opening/closing the console window (showing all previous output), users will be dumped back to the desktop. And jumping back into ScummVM can result in further issues, of screen going out of sync or crash, with poor display drivers. ==== | ||
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:::: This comment seems under the incorrect section, we are talking about the inconsistent behavior of the current method (disabled by default) used in ScummVM, to disable the console. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | :::: This comment seems under the incorrect section, we are talking about the inconsistent behavior of the current method (disabled by default) used in ScummVM, to disable the console. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 13:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::: We can also switch ScummVM to windowed app type and it won't wait *BUT* actually ScummVM *is* also a charmode app. In the windowed app case, "scummvm -?" won't work anymore and I don't think that this would be desired behaviour. So the current new way of hiding the console in case, we are started directly, makes actual sense. Oh and actually cmd.exe waits for programs marked as windowed apps. The application itself doesn't do anything itself. So its either windowed app *or* charmode app. There is nothing inbetween --[[User:M kiewitz|M kiewitz]] 18:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC) | ::::: We can also switch ScummVM to windowed app type and it won't wait *BUT* actually ScummVM *is* also a charmode app. In the windowed app case, "scummvm -?" won't work anymore and I don't think that this would be desired behaviour. So the current new way of hiding the console in case, we are started directly, makes actual sense. Oh and actually cmd.exe waits for programs marked as windowed apps. The application itself doesn't do anything itself. So its either windowed app *or* charmode app. There is nothing inbetween --[[User:M kiewitz|M kiewitz]] 18:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::: Yes, researching further shows there seems to be no simply solution to allow console output from any argument(s) passed, while freeing/returning the prompt if launched without argument, when using a command prompt. Since how a Windows programs interacts with a console, is decided at the link time. I noticed Cygwin was able to do this for programs in the past, but that seems a rather unique case. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Why is this pro/con hiding only? There is also the possibility of just showing the console, when its actually needed (error in game or md5 for unknown game etc.) --[[User::m_kiewitz|m_kiewitz]] | :Why is this pro/con hiding only? There is also the possibility of just showing the console, when its actually needed (error in game or md5 for unknown game etc.) --[[User::m_kiewitz|m_kiewitz]] | ||
:: I am not completely sure at what your comment is directed. Please clarify :) --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 15:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC) | :: I am not completely sure at what your comment is directed. Please clarify :) --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 15:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
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==== Multiple logs would lead to more confusion, about which file to submit, if that method was used. ==== | ==== Multiple logs would lead to more confusion, about which file to submit, if that method was used. ==== | ||
: I don't think so. The lognames would have names like "scummvm-20101026-202614.log" and thus would automatically be sorted by date to the user; they could simply pick the latest. Or if unsure, they could simply pick *all* of them and let us sort out which is the right one. Anyway, this is beyond the actual point we are discussing here. From my point of view it would be completely sufficient to use only a single log file, as that would provide exactly the same information as the console, only better as it stays around even when ScummVM crashes. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 18:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | : I don't think so. The lognames would have names like "scummvm-20101026-202614.log" and thus would automatically be sorted by date to the user; they could simply pick the latest. Or if unsure, they could simply pick *all* of them and let us sort out which is the right one. Anyway, this is beyond the actual point we are discussing here. From my point of view it would be completely sufficient to use only a single log file, as that would provide exactly the same information as the console, only better as it stays around even when ScummVM crashes. --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 18:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
:: The position of day and month in dates, varies between different countries, meaning any dates based only on numbers only can be confusing at times. While sending multiple logs can be a hassle in not archived, single only one file can be added to bug report at a time. Agreed, that multiple logs would not be worth it. [[User:Kirben|Kirben]] 05:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
==== If logs files are used, how do we handle multiple ScummVM be run at the same time? I expect this would effect developers more (i.e. when tracing regressions), and not be common with users though. ==== | ==== If logs files are used, how do we handle multiple ScummVM be run at the same time? I expect this would effect developers more (i.e. when tracing regressions), and not be common with users though. ==== | ||
: If we use multiple log files, this is trivial (and a standard practices). Just insert a random component into the log file names. Anyway, these arguments start getting a bit far-fetched :). --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 18:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | : If we use multiple log files, this is trivial (and a standard practices). Just insert a random component into the log file names. Anyway, these arguments start getting a bit far-fetched :). --[[User:Fingolfin|Fingolfin]] 18:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC) | ||